When I started to install the WindsorONE fascia on my shop, I learned that WindsorONE recommends using butt joints. Some of us has probably learned the hard way that manufacturer recommendations typically mean the product won’t be under warranty unless those recommendations are followed!
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According to the installation instructions,…
All joints where two pieces meet end to end must occur over framing. Butt joints are recommended for both horizontal and vertical trim. In runs of 16 feet or less, the ends should lightly touch. Runs over 16 feet require a gap of 1/8 inch, which should be sealed with exterior caulk. Attach to the framing members with two nails on each side of the joint. Drill pilot holes first to avoid splitting.
I decided to create the butt joints for my fascia with the Festool Domino XL. Using a domino would allow me to reinforce the joints, and avoid possible future problems I might have faced if I had used a miter joint. I put a domino into every single one of these joints, and the Festool Domino XL made it almost too easy. You’re wrong if you think the new Festool Domino XL is just for finish carpentry!
Only two dominos per joint, Gary? I would have expected at least six…… ;)
Bob, Those XL dominos are BIG!
Hey, I’m not really a carpenter, so not sure about something I just saw. What is that yellow band the guys are tacking on, and why are you installing what looks like 2 fascia boards there. the first one looked like it was adequate, before they tacked on that yellow band. The final fascia looks like it is just at the edge of the roof, with no overhang. why so much material in that location ?
just curious, thanks, bob
It’s a pretty common practice where I now live to install sub-fascia, and the practice isn’t limited to S. Oregon. I’ve seen the same thing all over the country, though typically the final fascia isn’t 2x but 1x.
The “yellow band” is Homeslicker. In the last twenty years or so, since we started see more and more fresh-grown face-grain wood used in construction, I’ve noticed a lot more rot whenever you sandwich two pieces of wood together–in fact, whenever you sandwich wood tight up against anything, even housewrap. Homeslicker is really meant to install behind siding and trim. If you want to understand more about it, read Joe Lstiburek’s article Mind The Gap (http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-038-mind-the-gap-eh). These days, I install some type of furring behind all trim, siding, column wraps, etc. The furring or Homeslicker encourages diffusion–the two-part process of evaporation and air-circulation. You con’t need a lot of air circulation, either. Without diffusion, you end up with a peanut-butter sandwich of rot, and it happens fast with fresh-growth flat-grain wood. And it’s not only rot that happens, but the pain fails very quickly. Again, turning to Joe Lstiburek’s most recent article, just published yesterday I think (http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-072-coil-springs-rubber-bands-spaghetti-tinkertoys/view?utm_source=Building+Science+Corporation+List&utm_campaign=cddc639f25-BSC_Newsletter_Issue_63&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_194890bc8c-cddc639f25-63898953)–he writes: “Old timers learned to put wood siding on furring to back ventilate the wood so the wood would stay drier and not move as much so the paint would stay on the siding longer.”
I’ve been a proponent of back ventilation for years, every since I read an article in FHB back in issue #137 by Mark Snyder. Here’s more infor: http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2013/04/05/rainscreen-walls/
So, why did you ignore the specific recommendations of the manufacturer? The reason a 1/8″ gap is suggested on runs over 16′ is expansion. You are going to see buckling after a few seasons.
With a longitudinal variation of less than 0.1% at most and the dimension being used I really doubt there will be much buckling.
Like others I’m curious about the yellow product. Have seen similar stuff but not this one.
I wish I’d read you’re response before I replied! I think 0.1% is actually MUCH MORE than the material would move in a normal installation–in fact, I think the wood would have to go from 10%MC to fiber saturation before you’d see THAT much movement with the grain.
Absolutely. 0.1%, or less, for most species going between saturated to dry (<7% mass-by-mass). With a pre-finished product close to final moisture balance much much less.
Liquid water trapped between the fascia and sub-fascia could possibly cause a bow but with the Homeslicker in place I guess we can rule that out.
I think it's great that you keep linking to Joe Lstiburek’s articles. They're both entertaining and very knowledgeable. As are yours.
True, that is a recommendation. Sometimes recommendations are made so the manufacturer can avoid problems, especially with folks who don’t know much about what they’re doing. Wood buckles only when the moisture content changes radically–from dry to wet. I checked the moisture content of the material I was using before I installed it. All the fascia was around 10% MC–pretty dry for fascia. But in S. Oregon, the moisture content of wood on the exterior of a home averages around 11-12% MC, so I knew that material wasn’t going to move much. Wood moves mostly against the grain. Softwoods move about 1% for every 4% change in MC–against the grain. They move hardly at all with the grain. In my case, there wouldn’t be more than 1/64th of movement with the grain. If anything, on the south and west sides of my place, I expected some shrinkage because of ‘micro-climate’ heating/drying, and I have seen some in the T&G boards, but again, that’s WITH the grain. I haven’t seen any movement in the fascia. It’s straight as a string.
I too love my Domino. The Festool stuff is way too expensive but it is nice. The sander is great for dust collecting. Their HEPA vac is great but way out of site expensive.
I think the cords on the sander and Domino are poor. They do not attach securly, often falling out. I would rather have a chord that is permantley attached. I had one loosen up, get hot and melted the connection. I’m not paying for a new one so I hard wired it. The Domino pins are way too expensive. I made my own.
Sorry , but I don’t understand why you need what looks like rain screen between the facia and sub facia
I answered that one on an earlier post.
I understand rain screen on walls, but if your roof is in good condition your sub facia should never see that much moisture
The picture below looks like some one was relying on the caulk to keep out the water, even rain screen would not have worked with that detail, that looks like the bottom corner of a wood window with no sill, good caulking may last 50 years but I don’t trust it to stick for 50 years
Ain’t it the truth! “Should” is such a great word. If your walls are in good condition, you “should” never see that much moisture behind the siding, too. But things happen and it’s best to plan for them. What if the subfascia has a MC over 19%? I’ve seen water come out of framing material when you cut it or drive nails into it–that means it’s over 30% MC. If you trap moisture between two boards, at 19% MC the wood will start to rot. It rains a lot up here sometimes. Hanging fingerjoint/edge-glued fascia, I was even concerned about moisture in the air! Now I don’t have to worry about anything. Very very cheap insurance.
You need Homeslicker, otherwise your facia or your sub facia will look like the casing and frame in the photo below.
Love to have a Domino XL DF 700 Joiner Set , but I bid fascia installation at a $1.00 LF. At $1275.00 + tax, I would have to install 1300 LF of Fascia for free to pay for the Domino XL DF 700 Joiner Set.
This last week a homeowner from southern California called me and wanted some info on WindsorOne fascia. He said his contractor wanted to use the WindsorOne for fascia instead of spruce or doug fir fascia. I told told him I haven’t used any spruce or doug fir fascia in about 15 years, because it either twists, cups or has dryroot problems. The extra cost for the WindsorOne fascia is absolutely worth it.
The biggest difference between all of the finger jointed products and WindsorOne, is how straith WindsorOne is. We installed Kelleher Advantage this last week and we never could make the fascia line perfectly straight, because of the crowns in the Kelleher Advantage 2×12 fascia.
No, I don’t work for WindsorOne, but I really like their product.
WindsorOne as deck fascia with butt joints.
Yeah…me, too. Like most things, if you use it correctly–install it thoughtfully, care about what you’re doing–you’ll love it.
I always look forward to your posts and pictures!
And I totally agree with you. If that’s all I used my Domino for, I’d give it away now–maybe to you–the Fascia on my place is finished!
But like my miter saw (which I use for a lot of other things than just cutting casing), I use my Domino XL for a LOT OF STUFF!!! I’ve made doors, gates, counter tops, shelving, etc. I even made some wooden latchset hardware with it!!! Once you start using one, you find all kinds of things you can do with it that you never thought of before. Kind of like a hammer, or a nail gun, or a level–like the level in that photo you posted! I bet your guys use that level for a lot of much more useful things than checking fascia!! :) I mean, at that point, if the fascia isn’t level over six feet……
Exactly! The Domino is one of the most versatile, useful, time saving, precision inducing, tools I own. I like it. Big fan of Windsor One too.
Oh, by the way Gary the spam protection code here is nearly indecipherable !!! I’ve tried 6 times with 6 different iterations and even asked my wife to help with not much better luck.
I had some errors until I ignored the caps
I had the pleasure of using WindsorOne for fascia recently on a remodel just blocks from the beach, in Malibu. It was 2×12 (I think, Jeez the memory is getting porous) with a 2×6 top band. The fascia was not plumb-cut, but was square on a 4:12 pitched roof. That meant lots of inside and outside compound miters, and not always 90*. The only problem was that material is so good that we had to up our fascia game to do the materials justice. With the WindsorOne it WAS exterior finish carpentry. I’m not shilling for them and it’s the first time I used it, although I had heard about it mostly through your various sites.
I didn’t spec it and I never saw the bill.
I butted the joints using my regular ‘ol run-of-the-mill Domino with the large tenons (three of them- pencil marks and all) and they worked beautifully.
We glued the butt joints and miters with 3M 5200 marine sealant. I’m confident the joints aren’t likely to crack or pull apart, even though the tenons don’t swell tight as with yellow glue. Also, it’s “gap-filling.”
Were you using exterior grade Dominos in that application?
No, the Sipo tenons were not available when I first started using the XL, though they are now, in long lengths that you can cut to size yourself. But I’m not sweating that detail at all. The mortises and joints are glued up well, and honestly, the tenons are protected by all the wood around them–which is radiata pine. I expect no matter what the tenons are made from, they’ll outlast the fascia if I don’t take good care of the fascia. If I take good care of the fascia, the tenons won’t be a problem. Simple logic.
You make a point of emphasizing the XL, when either Domino machine would work fine for this purpose.
Since you are advocating the use of the Domino to prevent the boards from warping away from each other, I actually think the XL dominos are overkill. And since they are simply used as shear prevention devices, glue isn’t even necessary: the fascia is held in place with nails and the dominos just prevent the boards from shifting.
Good general tip though.
We sure didn’t find the XL overkill–it made for a seriously strong joint. But I’m not ‘advocating’ anything. Yes, the smaller Domino machine would have worked just fine using the largest tenons, but it was much easier to position the mortises using the additional index pins on the XL. And the XL cuts those large mortises much faster and is easier to handle when cutting a large mortise.
I was just doing some research on dominos and am quite impressed with Festools system, but I have yet to invest in one. So I was thinking of putting it on my christmas wish list although I did have one question.
How do these dominos stand up for exterior projects and are there specific dominos for outdoor projects like the one you wrote about here?
Yes, there are Sippo dominoes that are made from hardwood and meant for exterior use. But remember, when you use dominoes, you usually surround that with glue inside a mortise that is coated with glue. Even TiteBond II is water resistant and will help protect those joints; if you used Titebond III, the joints would be waterproof–at least water wouldn’t travel through the joint, though if the wood gets saturated….
I’m in Seattle and I have been a big fan of Windsor One for interior trim since they first made it available here, but it absolutely scares the crap out of me to use pine (especially finger-jointed) in an outdoor application. I’ve seen too many “white-wood” fascia and exterior trim applications rotting on houses constructed in just the last five years–let alone longer. We typically use only clear pfj cedar or solid cedar for exterior applications, with the occasional vg fir molding, but I make sure to tell the client the rot resistance is depending on the paint as a shield. Am I too paranoid? I expect my clients won’t be as fastidious about their home maintenance as would be necessary to keep pine trim in good enough condition to resist rot.
I feel a lot more comfortable using WindsorONE than pfj cedar or even solid cedar. Fresh growth cedar and redwood sapwood do not have the insect or rot resistance that find with old growth heartwood. Plus, most of the cedar and redwood we see today is also face grain, so it moves twice as much when the MC changes. The same is true of pine, but WindsorONE is infused with a protective treatment so it resists rot and insects. I think it will last a lot longer than cedar or redwood. I used it very successfully on my home in L.A., too, and in some cases, even installed it right down to the concrete. I sealed all the cuts and made sure anything touching the concrete had three coats of paint, but still, you’re not supposed to do stuff like THAT and it worked.
General contractor – finish carpenter. Love good tools.
I own Domino XL 700 and just bought Domino 500 best tools ever. Also own two Rolex 90, one Rotex 150, planer, jig saw and vacuum cleaner from Festool. Next one will be edge bender.